past lives

[Liv]

I don't really have an opinion one way or another about whether past lives exist - I think there is some interesting evidence to suggest they might, but I'm by no means sure they do.

Anyway, just wondered if anyone has any theories or beliefs about them in particular, or thinks they remember one/some?

I once went to a regression therapist, and he relaxed me and then asked me to go back to a significant life and describe where I was/what I was wearing -- in fact I have a transcript of most of it, which I may as well post.

It is interesting, but I wonder to what extent he lead me, or I was just imagining things - like even saying to go back to a significant past life implies past lives exist and creates an expectation for you to describe something. My impressions were not always really concrete and vivid, but i just said the impressions I had and the things that came into my head.


What are you wearing on your feet? Some kind of boots, not sure. On your body? A dress of some sort, not fancy. I’m indoors alone in the kitchen. Your age? Quite young, perhaps 12.

The kitchen is quite large, stone floor, stone wall, big fireplace and a table. Where does the cooking take place? A grill over the fire and a metal range.

Why are you there? I’m not sure if I’m a maid working there or if it is my family house. There is a dining room, it is a wealthy house. Tudor era, heavy dark furniture.

It’s my family house but I feel like I’m not loved. In my bedroom there is a small bed, a 4 poster with drapes. A bowl and a jug for washing. A window and wooden panelling. I think I have a doll.
Is there a mirror? Yes. What do you see in the mirror? Quite pale with straight blonde hair. A dark red dress with a white ruff.

What is your name? Angela Phillips.
When did you last see your Father? He’s gone away to war, long time ago. Possibly fighting the French.

When did you last see your Mother? Recently. This morning. She is Lucy. Father is Richard. What does he do? He is a Gentleman. How does he make money when he is not fighting? He has some farm tenants.
What does your Mother do? Needlework and tells the staff what to do.

How do you spend your day? Don’t do much. What is your first meal? Porridge, in the kitchen. The cook is there. A maid helps me to get dressed.

What would be your next meal? Lunch with mother in the dining room. Meat and vegetables. Your last meal? Cheese before bed. I drink some water or wine.

Do you receive any form of education? Mum helps me to read, parts of the Bible. Learn how to sew.

Where is your nearest town? York. What do you see from your front door? Fields. We own them. A few houses and a church. St. Mary.

Next significant incident.
Getting married in that church. Aged 18. Who to? Mark Thompson. Mother is there, I feel Father died in the war. I’m anxious about getting married.
Why? He has been violent to me. Why are you getting married to him? I have to, he’s affluent. He has a grand house.

What year is it? I don’t know. Is the country at peace? Yes, it seems so. Who is on the Throne? Henry 8th. Where do you go after the wedding? Spend the night at his house but I’m not comfortable. I’m scared of him. I feel he’s violent sometimes.

Next.
I feel he is killing my baby girl. How old is the baby? Just a few days. Did he kill her in a fit of temper or plan it? Temper, he wanted a boy.

Do you have any close friends? No, I feel lonely. I have a maid and a cook. He has a manservant.
How does he spend his day? He gets money off his tenants and hunts.
And you? I write to my mother. I don’t see her much. I go to York in the coach and horses with my maid to buy cloth. How do you pay? With coins from my leather purse. What are the coins called? I don’t know. Do you like your maid? Reasonably.

Next.
He’s forcing me to have sex and I don’t want to. He’s hitting me.
(Client appeared very distressed)
Do you feel that you survive this assault? No.
Move to 10 minutes before death.
I’m still there, he’s attacking me.
Move to 5 minutes before death. He’s strangling me.
(At this point the client gave a huge and very loud expiration of air). Do you feel you have gone through the death experience? I feel I’m between lives.

[-Kt-]

I think therapists as a whole tend to lead people.

As a child my family counselor apparently helped my father "admit" that he was molested as a child, the theory that he molested me (hence the gender dysphoria) was brought up more than once, and My answer was the same every time, I have no memories of such a thing and I think I'd know about it if it happened.

Past lives I lean towards not believing, but I have a sort of agnostic view on it, I don't know, so I will not say it exists or not.

I do believe in reincarnation to a very limited extent(if your spirit somehow manages to possess an unborn baby, you may be reincarnated, this probably happens about 5% of the time, 80% of the time when a person dies, they are dead, dead, dead dead, 15% of the time their spirit may be able to survive death and proceed to the afterlife), so I suppose I ought to believe in past lives.


An aquantince of mine went into a trance to perform necromancy once, apparently the life before this one I was some daughter of a plantation owner in some carribean island, we had slaves.

[Liv]

That's very worrying, when therapists try to get people to remember "abuse"that didn;t happen. I am sure that can lead to terrible consequences - very unhelpful for the person in therapy, potentially disastrous for a person falsely accused. Potentially getting people to imagine past lives that didn;t really happen is pretty harmless I guess. The thing is hypnosis, by definition puts you in an ininhibited, obedient/suggestible and imaginitive sort of state, so I guess it is hard to know when it unearths real memories and when it encourages you to imagine ones

Intersting you take the view some people are reincarnated, some go to an afterlife and some just cease to exist. Is that a belief or a hunch or do you base it on anything in particular?

I guess your friend going into a trance and saying you were a plantation owner's daughter, you can take or leave.. I take it you didn;t have any particular feelings as to whether it might have been true?

[-Kt-]

That's very worrying, when therapists try to get people to remember "abuse"that didn;t happen. I am sure that can lead to terrible consequences - very unhelpful for the person in therapy, potentially disastrous for a person falsely accused. Potentially getting people to imagine past lives that didn;t really happen is pretty harmless I guess. The thing is hypnosis, by definition puts you in an ininhibited, obedient/suggestible and imaginitive sort of state, so I guess it is hard to know when it unearths real memories and when it encourages you to imagine ones

That's a good point, regression therapists are harmless by comparison, even if they are frauds, at worst they are just taking people's money and making them feel good, and who knows, maybe they really are helping people discover past memories.

I can't say whether the molestation of my father happened or not, but statistics tend to show that much of these revelations turn out to be false. And when the therapist suggested on multiple occasions that he could have molested me, when I clearly do not believe it to be the case, it kind of makes me curious about my father's story.
Whatever the case, my father kind of had a midlife crisis, and left to start a new family, and we've been estranged for years, probably for the best, he may not have approved of my transition.

Intersting you take the view some people are reincarnated, some go to an afterlife and some just cease to exist. Is that a belief or a hunch or do you base it on anything in particular?

It's the theory of the afterlife that makes the most sense to me, I don't really believe in a spirit while people are alive, I believe their brain calls the shots. And that a person is basically the one who chooses where they go when they die, particularly if they have retained their mental facilities in their later years. A person with the presence of mind upon death and some measure of spiritual ability should be able to retain their personality and memories and sentience after the body/brain is dead, sort of like an etherial reflex, if that makes any sense. And this spirit would be theoretically capable of being reincarnated or going off to some sort of afterlife.
This is one of the reasons I support consensual euthenasia, as losing one's mind or going braindead or having alztheimers is probably alot like dying forever. I will certainly check out before I start losing my mind.

I guess your friend going into a trance and saying you were a plantation owner's daughter, you can take or leave.. I take it you didn;t have any particular feelings as to whether it might have been true?

It was a good story, if it was fictional, this person was certainly very creative, as the level of detail was superb. I felt like I could relate with the story, and could visualize it in a vivid manner.

I think my belief is that I 'Don't know', perhaps one day I can investigate further.

[Liv]

That's a good point, regression therapists are harmless by comparison, even if they are frauds, at worst they are just taking people's money and making them feel good, and who knows, maybe they really are helping people discover past memories.

yes, and they also often try to "heal" traumas from the past life by talking them through etc, which might do some good, for example if the past life "memories" are also linked to issues in this life.

I can't say whether the molestation of my father happened or not, but statistics tend to show that much of these revelations turn out to be false. And when the therapist suggested on multiple occasions that he could have molested me, when I clearly do not believe it to be the case, it kind of makes me curious about my father's story.
Whatever the case, my father kind of had a midlife crisis, and left to start a new family, and we've been estranged for years, probably for the best, he may not have approved of my transition.

I'm sorry about that - the estragement, and also that you think he would not have approved. Maybe you will make things up with him one day. I am shocked about the therapist trying to get you to remember stuff that you had not mentioned or made any suggestion of, and , as you say, it does call into question their "discoveries"about your father as well

It's the theory of the afterlife that makes the most sense to me, I don't really believe in a spirit while people are alive, I believe their brain calls the shots. And that a person is basically the one who chooses where they go when they die, particularly if they have retained their mental facilities in their later years. A person with the presence of mind upon death and some measure of spiritual ability should be able to retain their personality and memories and sentience after the body/brain is dead, sort of like an etherial reflex, if that makes any sense. And this spirit would be theoretically capable of being reincarnated or going off to some sort of afterlife.
This is one of the reasons I support consensual euthenasia, as losing one's mind or going braindead or having alztheimers is probably alot like dying forever. I will certainly check out before I start losing my mind.

Interesting. It vaguely reminds me of Tibetan Buddhism where, I believe, some people train themselves to be really aware at the point of death and in control of what happens - although more with the aim of elightenment than with going to an afterlife or reincarnating (although some Buddhist schools teach you should aim to be reincarnated in a "Pure Land" from which it is apparently easier to achieve enlightenment).

I think my belief is that I 'Don't know', perhaps one day I can investigate further

That seems an honest and healthy belief

[Gwydion]

For the most part, I take the Tibetan Buddhist view of past lives. People get Reincarnated, so they have them, but the remembering of them is a byproduct of the process of trying to become enlightened. Focusing on the byproduct, distracts from the point, which is the journey.

I do not like "Pure Land" Buddhism. It is form without value, a japanese aboration. it is like Christianity if it were stripped of all morals. I shudder in horror at the thought that one phrase said earnestly once could cause a person to be lifted from the wheel and into the western Paradise without that soul being ready. no thanks, but it is a free multiverse, so people are welcome to believe that.

I think that who you are and what you believe does effect what happens next. having tracked my personal dead, I know that some reincarnate, some go somewhere else. Oblivion is definitely an option if your will for it is strong and you have the nerve, and that it is possible to get lost between, which really, really sucks. It is also possible to delay incarnation if one isn't ready or is waiting for someone.

I know how old I am and where I've been, but it's not that important compared to who I am and where I'm going.

[Liv]

For the most part, I take the Tibetan Buddhist view of past lives. People get Reincarnated, so they have them, but the remembering of them is a byproduct of the process of trying to become enlightened. Focusing on the byproduct, distracts from the point, which is the journey.

I see. I can understand how focussing on past lives too much could be seen as unhelpful to the Buddhist goal of elightenment - being too wrapped up in the current life's preoccupations is seen as unhelpful, so I guess even more so being obsessed by what we possibly got up to in previous ones. But, as an aside, I thought that in Buddhism the ultimate point was more about getting off the journey completely - that being in samsara is something to be escaped from once and for all. That's one thing that I'm not sure works for me about the BUddhist stance. However I know Buddhism tends to ecnourage you to live in the moment - is that what you mean about the journey being the point?


I do not like "Pure Land" Buddhism. It is form without value, a japanese aboration. it is like Christianity if it were stripped of all morals. I shudder in horror at the thought that one phrase said earnestly once could cause a person to be lifted from the wheel and into the western Paradise without that soul being ready. no thanks, but it is a free multiverse, so people are welcome to believe that.

Sure. It seems a bit of a departure from the Buddha's teachings to me. Have you ever come across a sect called the Sokka Gakkai - I think you really wouldn;t like them much. I was invited along to a few of their chanting sessions at one point (they bascially think you just need to chant the first line of the Lotus Sutra a lot and then you will he happy and successful - and that's Buddhism...).

I think that who you are and what you believe does effect what happens next. having tracked my personal dead, I know that some reincarnate, some go somewhere else. Oblivion is definitely an option if your will for it is strong and you have the nerve, and that it is possible to get lost between, which really, really sucks. It is also possible to delay incarnation if one isn't ready or is waiting for someone.
I know how old I am and where I've been, but it's not that important compared to who I am and where I'm going.

Intriguing. How did you go about tracking departed loved-ones and discovering your own past lives etc? I can;t imagine many people really WANT oblivion, but some people might EXPECT it, because of lacking proof for an afterlife. Maybe some people have a will for it if their experience of life is so painful they just want it all to stop, but surely even then they would prefer to still exist, but in nicer circumstances?

[AlexTheSane]

I personally believe in past lives, in a way.

I sense a sort of interconnectivity between everything, and I imagine that when one dies whatever energy animates us flows back into the whole. It is possible that some of these remain coherent enough to be reborn in a body without much lost. It is also possible that fragments of memory remain and get sucked into a new "soul".

I have had a dream which, given the bizzare nature of my dreams, may or may not have been a fragment of a past life. Most of my dreams tend to be surreal, involved, often with their own universes and histories. Usually strange things phisics would not allow happen, mostly to me and/or hallways that I am walking through, the most common ones being leaping out of control over tall objects and the ever cliche extending hallway. This one was a bit more realistic, I walked down a hallway that was decorated in a sort of Ottoman style, passed a mirror, looked into it and saw a young arab woman. The whole thing was probably only about thirty seconds. It had none of the emotions or sensations that fill my usual dreams. But, of course, there is no way to be certain. At the time I interpreted it as a past life on a bit of a vague sensation, and see little reason to second guess myself now.

[ChildOfTheLight]

I don't see any particular reason to believe in past lives. However, if I were living 200 years ago I wouldn't have had any particular reason to believe that light is intimately connected with electric and magnetic fields, which are themselves intimately connected. Given a reasonable but long life, that would have been proven within my lifetime had I lived then, and I don't know of any solid evidence that past lives don't exist, so I don't claim to know what will be discovered in the future.

I doubt any resolution will be had to this until we understand the nature of consciousness. We don't even come close to understanding it right now.

[Gwydion]

I see. I can understand how focussing on past lives too much could be seen as unhelpful to the Buddhist goal of elightenment - being too wrapped up in the current life's preoccupations is seen as unhelpful, so I guess even more so being obsessed by what we possibly got up to in previous ones. But, as an aside, I thought that in Buddhism the ultimate point was more about getting off the journey completely - that being in samsara is something to be escaped from once and for all. That's one thing that I'm not sure works for me about the Buddhist stance. However I know Buddhism tends to ecnourage you to live in the moment - is that what you mean about the journey being the point?

This Now is what matters. I also tend to be of the opinion that if I was ready to be off the wheel, I wouldn't be here. Enlightenment is a state of being. It freaks me out a little to think that some mystical being would just show up and change me and millions of businessmen obsessed with material things into the equivalent of Bodhisattvas. It's sort of the antithesis of working in each now to be centered and mindful and compassionate. I am likely not explaining this well. This cold is not helping with articulateness. The discipline of living this way creates the mindset. The Journey is the point. Doing without doing, the process of detaching from the material, these things are states of being, not a cookie to be bestowed for one moment of surrender. To be all about grabbing the cookie is the opposite of doing without doing., wanting without wanting

Sure. It seems a bit of a departure from the Buddha's teachings to me. Have you ever come across a sect called the Sokka Gakkai - I think you really wouldn;t like them much. I was invited along to a few of their chanting sessions at one point (they basically think you just need to chant the first line of the Lotus Sutra a lot and then you will he happy and successful - and that's Buddhism...).

I had a friend who's mother was into that. It's an outgrowth of Pure Land. I don't like it. Not one bit.

Intriguing. How did you go about tracking departed loved-ones and discovering your own past lives etc? I can;t imagine many people really WANT oblivion, but some people might EXPECT it, because of lacking proof for an afterlife. Maybe some people have a will for it if their experience of life is so painful they just want it all to stop, but surely even then they would prefer to still exist, but in nicer circumstances?

It's a knack really. It only works for people I knew. I've no real [/quote]affinity for the dead. The past lives thing is a biproduct of the process. Given a certain amount of intunedness, things bubble up. They are toys, distractions, not the point, but I do admit there is a certain comfort in knowing exactly why one is here at this time and in this body and location.

As to Oblivion: Some people expect it and believe they want it. This is often what suicide is about, after all. To really look into that abyss though is different then imagining it. No one has to embrace Oblivion if they don't want to. Even on the brink of oblivion there is choice. One can step back, chose something else.

[Jaimey]

I kind of think that whatever you want to happen is what happens. If you want to be reincarnated, so be it. Heaven? Sure. Hell...well, I don't believe in hell, but maybe a more permanent death...something like that. But that's just me. I like to make up my own rules about life and death.

[Kaimialana]

When you die, you become part of other living things, and the earth, and the air, and your molecules disperse, along with the energy within. Death in humans is the end of conciousness, a product of biology, and thus not continued when biology ceases to function.

When its over its over. Might as well make the most of it while you can.

[Jamie]

I'm with Kaimialana here

[RilianXI]

There's no evidence of souls as anything other than a metaphor. Without them, reincarnation is impossible. But I think it's impossible, anyway, for reasons that I can't put into words right now.

[Liv]

Tell that to BUddhists -- they say (unlike most Hindus) there is no soul and also that we reincarnate, but I can't completely get my head round how (in my experience different Buddhists give different explanations anyway)

[Gwydion]

Eh. i go with Souls, but I'm an Ecclectic.

[RilianXI]

Tell that to BUddhists -- they say (unlike most Hindus) there is no soul and also that we reincarnate, but I can't completely get my head round how (in my experience different Buddhists give different explanations anyway)

My friend Adam is a buddhist. He says that this is my first life.

[Kaimialana]

Tell that to BUddhists -- they say (unlike most Hindus) there is no soul and also that we reincarnate, but I can't completely get my head round how (in my experience different Buddhists give different explanations anyway)

My friend Adam is a buddhist. He says that this is my first life.

How would /he/ know? Psychic? Does he think there is some special power that he has which can allow him to detect the age of....whatever (if they don't believe in souls what /would/ they be detecting)?

Buddhists saying things like that is what turned us off to Buddhism in the first place. Take a well thought out system like the noble truths and the eightfold path, then add all this crap to it. Most western Buddhism is like that these days.

[Liv]

Yes, how the [] can he know about it? And what is he implying by it? That you are some spiritually immature person, while he is further along the path?

I see Gwydion. That's interesting. Since Buddhism grew out of Hinduism, which does believe in souls which reincarnate, you might expect Buddhists would believe in them too, but as far as I can see most Buddhist schools claim there is no actual soul that moves on from one body to another, it is just that the remaining wordly attachments of the dying person somehow spark off another birth; but I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of how that would work, and even if it was true, in what way you can say the next person is still the same person, who was experiencing the "past life"before. In Tibetan Buddhism, for example, they clearly believe some kind oif literal reincarnation is possible, as some lamas are thought to be reincarnations of their predecessors, down to being expected to recognise their belongings etc (and also there are teachings about what to expect in the "Bardos"in-between lives, so how would that work if nothing can be said to exist to travel through the Bardo and be aware of it?). It seems a bit confusing - I would almost say, the Buddhist equivalent of the Trinity - a concept which just can't be made to make logical sense but has to be taken on faith, IMO. However if your version involves a soul, why not?

As for Buddhism generally, I think it has much that is admirable about it. On a personal note, I was in close proximity to the Dalai lama once, when he did a speech at the opening of a "peace garden," and felt uplifted by his presence and inspired by him, which must be a good sign his BUddhism has something valuable to offer.

[Kaimialana]

Oh, of course. Anyone can feel the loving kindness effect of such a person. There is obvious merit to those Buddhist paths. I just think that, philosophically, the real importance, liberation from suffering, and the use of the 8 fold path to obtain this, becomes lost in needless ritual. Its the whole idea about someone pointing at the moon but people look at the finger.