Social issue. Kinda need advice.

[not_quite_pie]

So here's the deal.

I'm female-bodied, was raised female, and have no problem with being percieved as female. In fact, I'm closeted about the whole agender thing. People see boobs and think girl and I'm fine with that, and I might have gotten snide comments in the past about being a dyke or a tomboy or whatever else people want to call me but that happens to women who don't fit preconcieved notions as well. I assumed, of course, that I was female for most of my life, simply because I was brought up under the normal cultural assumption that sex and gender are the same thing and I didn't realise that I was supposed to feel anything; my body was female so it's a no-brainer.

So anyway, I have never had to put any effort into passing whatsoever. I may wear boy shirts and behave in a gender-ambiguous manner, but I have huge breasts and that's generally enough. Until this one guy. We were in a meeting for a university club and he makes a comment about how "girls" do something (I forget what); my usual rebuttal is, of course, "I don't". He replies with "yeah, but you're practically genderless". I'm used to people calling me weird so I laugh this off and tell myself that he did not just out me in front of the entire active body of the club; he was joking around, they took it as a joke, I passed it off fine (actually my pass-off was terrible but the Impenetable Binary Cultural Assumption Armour was more than adequate to protect me), everything is fine. I'm kinda flattered, after I convince myself that a freak-out is totally unnecessary, that somebody at least doesn't see me as a girl, but this raises the first problem: something is wrong with my gender presentation.

I knew this already. I don't do makeup, I act and dress gender-ambiguously... but I never bothered to do otherwise because lots of women do the same, and my body shape has always been good enough protection before. But I can't dramatically change my behaviour now. This guy is part of my circle of friends; suddenly acting more feminine would confuse the group (in fact when I started wearing skirts because of the heatwave that's just hit us, my friends all cheered "you turned into a real girl!").

Second problem: it wasn't a one-time joke. I don't mind joking, but it's making my friends suspicious, I think. And this guy has now started to bring up the occasional gender or transgender discussion in conjunction with his comments about my genderlessness and about how gender probably doesn't matter as much to asexuals anyway (I'm asexual, I probably should've mentioned that earlier). I think he's trying to introduce me to the concept of agender and/or nudge me out of the closet. I don't want to do this because 1) people already dismiss my opinions on such things due to my sexuality and I don't want them to have more ammo, 2) my family can never, ever know, 3) I'm already the biggest minority in my social group due to my sexuality and 4) I don't want to have to justify everything I do that could be percieved as feminine/masculine or have every gender comment I make seen as part of some form of genderqueer political activism. Besides, the girls in our group see me as a girl, we have "girl's nights", and... well, frankly, I don't want to freak them out or have to explain myself. Again.

So basically, what should I do about this? Do I need to train myself to be more feminine? How should I handle my friend? I could take him aside and politely explain the situation, but there's a chance he won't take me seriously, he'd definitely let slip to his girlfriend (also in our social circle, awesome girl who I am in no way ready to come out to), and it's quite possible that he knows nothing and I'm freaking out and confronting him would have me inadvertently coming out to him while also making me look extremely oversensitive.

[Shadow Dragon]

Firstly, don't try to force yourself to be feminine if you aren't. It'll just draw more attention and make you more self conscious. At this point, if you aren't ready to come out, then it's best to neither confirm nor deny it. Just brush those kind of comments off. However, if you do pressure you to come out, then they likely already know to some degree. If that's the case, you might as well come out. That's better than trying to keep a secret that everyone already knows. Just ask them not to tell other people.

[Ryles]

Could you tell the guy to lay off that without outing yourself to him? I think most girls don't like it when someone says they aren't actually a girl, so it wouldn't have to be that weird. You could just say "Hey, I know you're joking but could you stop acting like I'm not a girl? It's bugging me."

The assumption that gender wouldn't matter much to asexuals is annoying, too, but you don't have to get into that. It's just a peeve of mine. It can matter both in terms of romantic attraction and gender identity as much as it can to sexuals. The only real difference is that sex doesn't seem to be that big a deal, gender can still be a giant deal.

[not_quite_pie]

Firstly, don't try to force yourself to be feminine if you aren't. It'll just draw more attention and make you more self conscious. At this point, if you aren't ready to come out, then it's best to neither confirm nor deny it. Just brush those kind of comments off. However, if you do pressure you to come out, then they likely already know to some degree. If that's the case, you might as well come out. That's better than trying to keep a secret that everyone already knows. Just ask them not to tell other people.

That's fair enough. Everyone who knows me is used to me being quirky; if pretending isn't useful then they can keep putting up with me being quirky.

The problem is that I don't know if he actually knows, or if I'm just freaking out and reading stuff into nothing. I don't want to confront him if he doesn't know, because... well, then he would, and I'd look oversensitive and crazy. And if everyone knows and just isn't talking about it then hiding it is stupid, but I don't think they do... I'm pretty sure this is the only guy to ever spot me, but what if the others are just refraining from saying anything? The rest of the group has started to rib me a bit since his declaration that I'm "genderless", but I don't know if it's just innocent joking (which I have no problem with so long as it doesn't raise suspicion) or not.

Could you tell the guy to lay off that without outing yourself to him? I think most girls don't like it when someone says they aren't actually a girl, so it wouldn't have to be that weird. You could just say "Hey, I know you're joking but could you stop acting like I'm not a girl? It's bugging me."

The assumption that gender wouldn't matter much to asexuals is annoying, too, but you don't have to get into that. It's just a peeve of mine. It can matter both in terms of romantic attraction and gender identity as much as it can to sexuals. The only real difference is that sex doesn't seem to be that big a deal, gender can still be a giant deal.

It's a peeve of mine, too -- the group has some pretty wacky misconceptions about asexuality but I can't rteally correct them since they already think I talk about my asexuality too much (apparently not understanding a double entendre is flaunting my asexuality... yeah, another insulting misunderstanding I hate).

[Simon]

Another one for, "Don't be something you're not." We all have to conform a little bit but don't bend the wrong way.

I don't know your friends but it wouldn't surprise me if some of them thought your asexuality was closet lesbianism and had never thought of gender variance. So many people can only think of gender variance in terms of sexual orientation. :\

[Kass-ID]

Does the group tend to 'rip' on each other a lot, or does it seem to be more focused on you. If it's the former, I'd say just brush it off, those kind of groups are good at finding that one thing that will really get under your skin without knowing they are doing it, if it's the later I'd think about looking for new friends.(no offense intended)

I'm for not faking it as well. It'd be more of a dead give away than anything else.

[Allosaurus2]

Would it work to tell the friend that you find comments regarding your gender rude/disrespectful/uncomfortable/whatever and ask him to stop making them?

[not_quite_pie]

We all pick on each other's quirks quite a bit, in a lighthearted way. They'd stop if I asked them to (after a brief conversation about me being oversensitive), but that might be a step backwards; I have no problem with jokes, I just don't want to raise suspicion, and suddenly becoming sensitive over a single issue might not help there.

I'm glad the general concensus seems to be "don't pretend" because that sounded like it was going to be really hard and annoying to learn. Although as is I kinda feel like an imposter whenever somebody wants to have "girl talk" or a walk into the Women's Room (yeah, yeah, I know, but there's coffee and a microwave in there and I pull my weight on the projects and don't hurt anyone by being there), somehow I get the feeling that trying to fake it might, paradoxically, make me feel worse.

[phx_rising]

I'm not really sure I have any advice...I do want to offer my support though. Fears about being outted are some huge fears for sure!! Weither unreasonable or blown out of proportion...it's still a huge fear!! I very much doubt that they suspect you of being genderless. Most people don't know that's an option. People often know of MtF, FtM (though...to a lesser degree) and androgyny (to an even lesser degree still) so all the varient within the umbrella of transgender...not so much. So I'm pretty reasonably sure they just find the idea humorous (which...is kinda sad) and they're picking at it because it's a cartoonish idea to them. Since "no one can be genderless. Duh. That's just stupid".....yea.
As for trying to be someone you aren't? Trans people have always been pretty good at blending in and finding ways to hide...but seems to me once you sit down and get straight with yourself...there's just no putting that cat in the bag. As Evan says "no one puts baby in the corner." hehe. Trust me...I know, I've tried. Oy. BAD idea.

[not_quite_pie]

Yeah, you're probably right. I'm probably just freaking out over nothing. Everyone in the group is used to me being non-girly; this guy just turned out to be super-perceptive about a lot of things and shocked me a bit because I've never had to put any effort into passing whatsoever (I get called a tomboy a lot, but that still presupposes female) and nobody's ever really called me on it, serious or not.

[Zainin]

I agree with Sevan- a lot of people wouldn't suspect it since they don't know. I identify as a hermaphrodite and a lot of people I know think I'm extremely masculine, though I have some feminine touches. They don't suspect me to be transgendered, though, as they KNOW I'm not a FtM and they pretty much seem to assume it's the only way I could go.

As trite as it sounds, just be yourself. I'm closeted to most people, but I'm not to my friends. They are the people I will not hide myself to.

[phx_rising]

I agree with Sevan- a lot of people wouldn't suspect it since they don't know.

*sqeeeeeel* You called me Sevan!!!! *kisses Zainin and runs* (sorry for that brief interuption....I know that being validated is like, the whole point of this site but...I'm so tickled when my name gets used!!) K...back to your regularly scheduled forum reading.

[ewd]

Is it possible that he is

a) trying to drop hints that you can talk about that sort of stuff with him as a support person etc
b) maybe he likes you and is trying to get across he doesn't care if you're asexual and/ or agendered?

[not_quite_pie]

Is it possible that he is

a) trying to drop hints that you can talk about that sort of stuff with him as a support person etc
b) maybe he likes you and is trying to get across he doesn't care if you're asexual and/ or agendered?

I suspect as much, but I wish he wouldn't do it in public. (He doesn't like me in a girlfrien-way, if that's what you mean; he's in a happy, fulfilling relationship and they're just good mates of mine.)

[AlexTheSane]

Or he could just be using "genderless" to mean "tomboy", you never know exactly how much people know about this or what they think about it, but I feel like society in general would interpret it that way. Whether or not that's the case, he's probably just poking fun at features of your presentation everyone's noticed. I do think that you should not let it go if it really bothers you, because if you do he'll keep doing it and you'll just get more paranoid and self-conscious (personal experience there).

[Kinkly]

if it gets too much and you wish to confrount him maybe you should ask what he means by genderless you may want to prepare rebutles for comments like you don't do anything girly - you enjoy girls only time he doesn't know how girly you are then.
If he knows nothing you won't have outed yourself if he does you can ask him not let other people know know his suspisions "I don't want a silly rumor to loose my space in girl spaces"
or if you choose to confirm his thoughts "thankyou for your support but please don't let on to this with the others I don't want them to see me as genderqueer/weirder then they already do for the reasons you posted earlier"
hope this helps good luck

[not_quite_pie]

Thanks for the advice. Our group is always picking on each other, so it's be a weird overreaction if I said much, but if it continues I may have no choice but to take him aside and do so. My friends will accept me either way, I'd just prefer to avoid all the weirded-out second-guessing bullshit as well as the chance that it could spread outside the group, because my family, lecturers and coursemates knowing isn't an option at this point.

[not_quite_pie]

Well, it's seems like the gender thing is our official in-joke between me and this guy now. I have the feeling that I'm relatively "safe"; he seems to be just teasing.